Discussion:
Django is not a serious framework, really
(too old to reply)
Jason Ma
2012-04-11 12:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
I download and tried to use the Django 1.4 yesterday. I am a dummy
and I just follow the official document, but When I just start a
project.
I found that it is what I see from my computer:

***@jason-pc:~/workspace/hunqing$ tree .
.
├── hunqing
│   ├── __init__.py
│   ├── __init__.pyc
│   ├── settings.py
│   ├── settings.pyc
│   ├── urls.py
│   ├── urls.pyc
│   ├── wsgi.py
│   └── wsgi.pyc
├── __init__.py
├── manage.py
├── settings.py
└── urls.py

but what doc say?
mysite/
manage.py
mysite/
__init__.py
settings.py
urls.py
wsgi.py

If you're a beginner, what are you going to say, yes, F! Why I created
more files? I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested
that carefully. Ok, forget that, We'll see and continue.
In the later chapter, we created two classes in the models.py in
polls, I do all the steps same as the doc except that one columns
name, mine is questions whereas the doc is question, so I want to test
the power of the syncdb, I modified the model.py and I just do the
python manage.py sql polls, that's ok, it is correct name this time.
So I just run it to change it in database using python manage.py
syncdb, it works too. But go to the db and see, the table is not
changed at all. I want to say F again now. That's what doc say:

The syncdb command runs the SQL from sqlall on your database for all
apps in INSTALLED_APPS that don't already exist in your database. This
creates all the tables, initial data and indexes for any apps you've
added to your project since the last time you ran syncdb. syncdb can
be called as often as you like, and it will only ever create the
tables that don't exist.

That's gr8, If you just create the tables that don't exist, why do you
syncdb successfully? One basic rule of database is consistence, if you
can't created the tables you want, why don't get alert? I am not a
good programmer though, I do know if you can't do something, just say
it. How can I know the error without any prompt?

There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think it is true?
--
Best wishes,

Jason Ma
HP Enterprise Services
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Jan Schotsmans
2012-04-11 12:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jason,

pyc are compiled py files ... it means you most likely ran the code before
doing the "ls".

As for the structure of the directories, I'm fairly certain that its MySite
first, then MyApp, not 2x mysite.

Not going to speak on the database syncs, other then that they work fine
for me.

I'd also suggest you don't use titles like you do, don't post user problems
in the developers list (this is for core django development discussions,
not users having problems).

If your comment with file layouts was regarding the ".pyc" files, might I
suggest you first read a bit of the basics on Python. They aren't really
essential, but if pyc files confuse and agitate you as much as your message
title suggest, it might alleviate quite a bit of stress.

r/Jan
Post by Jason Ma
Hi,
I download and tried to use the Django 1.4 yesterday. I am a dummy
and I just follow the official document, but When I just start a
project.
.
├── hunqing
│ ├── __init__.py
│ ├── __init__.pyc
│ ├── settings.py
│ ├── settings.pyc
│ ├── urls.py
│ ├── urls.pyc
│ ├── wsgi.py
│ └── wsgi.pyc
├── __init__.py
├── manage.py
├── settings.py
└── urls.py
but what doc say?
mysite/
manage.py
mysite/
__init__.py
settings.py
urls.py
wsgi.py
If you're a beginner, what are you going to say, yes, F! Why I created
more files? I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested
that carefully. Ok, forget that, We'll see and continue.
In the later chapter, we created two classes in the models.py in
polls, I do all the steps same as the doc except that one columns
name, mine is questions whereas the doc is question, so I want to test
the power of the syncdb, I modified the model.py and I just do the
python manage.py sql polls, that's ok, it is correct name this time.
So I just run it to change it in database using python manage.py
syncdb, it works too. But go to the db and see, the table is not
The syncdb command runs the SQL from sqlall on your database for all
apps in INSTALLED_APPS that don't already exist in your database. This
creates all the tables, initial data and indexes for any apps you've
added to your project since the last time you ran syncdb. syncdb can
be called as often as you like, and it will only ever create the
tables that don't exist.
That's gr8, If you just create the tables that don't exist, why do you
syncdb successfully? One basic rule of database is consistence, if you
can't created the tables you want, why don't get alert? I am not a
good programmer though, I do know if you can't do something, just say
it. How can I know the error without any prompt?
There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think it is true?
--
Best wishes,
Jason Ma
HP Enterprise Services
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Jason Ma
2012-04-11 12:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jan,
I don't mean the .pyc files in the folder, If it was that,
everything will be fine. Please read what I typed carefully. And
please test the case I just mentioned, I tested again and still the
same situation. It maybe the feature, but hope it will get more
user-friendly because we are all human being right? We will get more
fun if we get more helpful document. Forget it if it bother you.

Regards,
Jason
Post by Jan Schotsmans
Hi Jason,
pyc are compiled py files ... it means you most likely ran the code before
doing the "ls".
As for the structure of the directories, I'm fairly certain that its MySite
first, then MyApp, not 2x mysite.
Not going to speak on the database syncs, other then that they work fine for
me.
I'd also suggest you don't use titles like you do, don't post user problems
in the developers list (this is for core django development discussions, not
users having problems).
If your comment with file layouts was regarding the ".pyc" files, might I
suggest you first read a bit of the basics on Python. They aren't really
essential, but if pyc files confuse and agitate you as much as your message
title suggest, it might alleviate quite a bit of stress.
r/Jan
Post by Jason Ma
Hi,
I download and tried to use the Django 1.4 yesterday. I am a dummy
and I just follow the official document, but When I just start a
project.
.
├── hunqing
│ ├── __init__.py
│ ├── __init__.pyc
│ ├── settings.py
│ ├── settings.pyc
│ ├── urls.py
│ ├── urls.pyc
│ ├── wsgi.py
│ └── wsgi.pyc
├── __init__.py
├── manage.py
├── settings.py
└── urls.py
but what doc say?
mysite/
manage.py
mysite/
__init__.py
settings.py
urls.py
wsgi.py
If you're a beginner, what are you going to say, yes, F! Why I created
more files? I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested
that carefully. Ok, forget that, We'll see and continue.
In the later chapter, we created two classes in the models.py in
polls, I do all the steps same as the doc except that one columns
name, mine is questions whereas the doc is question, so I want to test
the power of the syncdb, I modified the model.py and I just do the
python manage.py sql polls, that's ok, it is correct name this time.
So I just run it to change it in database using python manage.py
syncdb, it works too. But go to the db and see, the table is not
The syncdb command runs the SQL from sqlall on your database for all
apps in INSTALLED_APPS that don't already exist in your database. This
creates all the tables, initial data and indexes for any apps you've
added to your project since the last time you ran syncdb. syncdb can
be called as often as you like, and it will only ever create the
tables that don't exist.
That's gr8, If you just create the tables that don't exist, why do you
syncdb successfully? One basic rule of database is consistence, if you
can't created the tables you want, why don't get alert? I am not a
good programmer though, I do know if you can't do something, just say
it. How can I know the error without any prompt?
There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think it is true?
--
Best wishes,
Jason Ma
HP Enterprise Services
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Django developers" group.
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Best wishes,

Jason Ma
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Jan Schotsmans
2012-04-11 14:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Jason,

I suggest you go to the django-users list for help:
http://groups.google.com/group/django-users
This list is only for django core development (aka, the framework itself),
not for people using Django.

And, it's no bother, but you came on rather strong, with wording that real
world information, directly contradicts, not only is Django used for a
variety of sites, it is also used by some very high profile sites and
corporations.
Besides that, the documentation is worked on almost as hard as Django's
core, very little auto generated content and it is checked, for each
release, by a multitude of people.

If you found an actual error in said documentation, it would be best to
give detailed information and start a constructive conversation about
the issue's, so that it can be resolved.
Starting with a premise that mostly condenses down to "Django/Django
Documentation is a 3de rate POS", isn't very constructive and will only
serve to tick of the developers that put their free time into creating this
application.

But as someone else replied already and I just did again, when following
the documentation point by point, the correct layouts and behavior, are
obtained as expressed in the documentation.

If you repost your problem to the appropriate list (django-users), I would
also suggest you give a bit more information.

Things like:
Python version.
OS you are using. (and I think in your case the language of the OS might be
useful).
Exact commands you used to.
Etc.

The more information the better.

r/Jan
Post by Jason Ma
Hi Jan,
I don't mean the .pyc files in the folder, If it was that,
everything will be fine. Please read what I typed carefully. And
please test the case I just mentioned, I tested again and still the
same situation. It maybe the feature, but hope it will get more
user-friendly because we are all human being right? We will get more
fun if we get more helpful document. Forget it if it bother you.
Regards,
Jason
Post by Jan Schotsmans
Hi Jason,
pyc are compiled py files ... it means you most likely ran the code
before
Post by Jan Schotsmans
doing the "ls".
As for the structure of the directories, I'm fairly certain that its
MySite
Post by Jan Schotsmans
first, then MyApp, not 2x mysite.
Not going to speak on the database syncs, other then that they work fine
for
Post by Jan Schotsmans
me.
I'd also suggest you don't use titles like you do, don't post user
problems
Post by Jan Schotsmans
in the developers list (this is for core django development discussions,
not
Post by Jan Schotsmans
users having problems).
If your comment with file layouts was regarding the ".pyc" files, might I
suggest you first read a bit of the basics on Python. They aren't really
essential, but if pyc files confuse and agitate you as much as your
message
Post by Jan Schotsmans
title suggest, it might alleviate quite a bit of stress.
r/Jan
Post by Jason Ma
Hi,
I download and tried to use the Django 1.4 yesterday. I am a dummy
and I just follow the official document, but When I just start a
project.
.
├── hunqing
│ ├── __init__.py
│ ├── __init__.pyc
│ ├── settings.py
│ ├── settings.pyc
│ ├── urls.py
│ ├── urls.pyc
│ ├── wsgi.py
│ └── wsgi.pyc
├── __init__.py
├── manage.py
├── settings.py
└── urls.py
but what doc say?
mysite/
manage.py
mysite/
__init__.py
settings.py
urls.py
wsgi.py
If you're a beginner, what are you going to say, yes, F! Why I created
more files? I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested
that carefully. Ok, forget that, We'll see and continue.
In the later chapter, we created two classes in the models.py in
polls, I do all the steps same as the doc except that one columns
name, mine is questions whereas the doc is question, so I want to test
the power of the syncdb, I modified the model.py and I just do the
python manage.py sql polls, that's ok, it is correct name this time.
So I just run it to change it in database using python manage.py
syncdb, it works too. But go to the db and see, the table is not
The syncdb command runs the SQL from sqlall on your database for all
apps in INSTALLED_APPS that don't already exist in your database. This
creates all the tables, initial data and indexes for any apps you've
added to your project since the last time you ran syncdb. syncdb can
be called as often as you like, and it will only ever create the
tables that don't exist.
That's gr8, If you just create the tables that don't exist, why do you
syncdb successfully? One basic rule of database is consistence, if you
can't created the tables you want, why don't get alert? I am not a
good programmer though, I do know if you can't do something, just say
it. How can I know the error without any prompt?
There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think it is true?
--
Best wishes,
Jason Ma
HP Enterprise Services
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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Post by Jan Schotsmans
Post by Jason Ma
"Django developers" group.
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Post by Jan Schotsmans
Post by Jason Ma
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Best wishes,
Jason Ma
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Russell Keith-Magee
2012-04-11 12:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Ma
Hi,
I download and tried to use the Django 1.4 yesterday. I am a dummy
and I just follow the official document, but When I just start a
project.
.
├── hunqing
│ ├── __init__.py
│ ├── __init__.pyc
│ ├── settings.py
│ ├── settings.pyc
│ ├── urls.py
│ ├── urls.pyc
│ ├── wsgi.py
│ └── wsgi.pyc
├── __init__.py
├── manage.py
├── settings.py
└── urls.py
but what doc say?
mysite/
manage.py
mysite/
__init__.py
settings.py
urls.py
wsgi.py
First rule: If you're following a tutorial and want to follow along, you need to actually follow the instructions as given. The tutorial asks you to type:

django-admin.py startproject mysite
django-admin.py startproject hunqing

Furthermore, you've evidently run some of the code before you looked at the directory structure. .pyc files are the Python runtime's precompiled byte code output. If you look at the directory structure at the point the tutorial asks you to, you shouldn't see any .pyc files.

If you're using an IDE, it's possible the IDE might have compiled these files for you. Regardless, the existence of .pyc files shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that has used Python before. Django's installation guides tells you that you're going to need to install Python -- that should be enough of a hint that you're probably going to need to know a little bit about Python in order to use Django. Django's tutorial can't -- nor should it -- teach you everything there is to know about Python. At some point, we have to assume that you're going to learn the language that Django uses.
Post by Jason Ma
If you're a beginner, what are you going to say, yes, F! Why I created
more files? I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested
that carefully. Ok, forget that, We'll see and continue.
We've checked the tutorial quite carefully. To be doubly sure, I've just worked through the start of the tutorial myself to make sure it matches what is described -- and it does. If you follow the instructions as written, you should get the output as described. If you don't follow the instructions as written, then its anyone's guess what you'll get.
Post by Jason Ma
In the later chapter, we created two classes in the models.py in
polls, I do all the steps same as the doc except that one columns
name, mine is questions whereas the doc is question, so I want to test
the power of the syncdb, I modified the model.py and I just do the
python manage.py sql polls, that's ok, it is correct name this time.
So I just run it to change it in database using python manage.py
syncdb, it works too. But go to the db and see, the table is not
The syncdb command runs the SQL from sqlall on your database for all
apps in INSTALLED_APPS that don't already exist in your database. This
creates all the tables, initial data and indexes for any apps you've
added to your project since the last time you ran syncdb. syncdb can
be called as often as you like, and it will only ever create the
tables that don't exist.
That's gr8, If you just create the tables that don't exist, why do you
syncdb successfully? One basic rule of database is consistence, if you
can't created the tables you want, why don't get alert? I am not a
good programmer though, I do know if you can't do something, just say
it. How can I know the error without any prompt?
But it *does* give you a prompt.

When you run syncdb, the output tells you exactly what has, and what has not, been created.

So, if a table for myapp.MyModel has been created, in the output of syncdb you'll see a message that looks something like:

Creating table myapp_mymodel

If you then go and modify MyModel, and then run syncdb again, you won't see this message. That means that the table hasn't been created as a result of your syncdb call. If you run syncdb, and you *don't* see a "Creating table" message that you were expecting, then you should probably go looking to see why.
Post by Jason Ma
There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think it is true?
I may be biased, but I certainly think so.

If you print Django's documentation, it runs to over 900 pages. That's not 900 pages of auto generated JavaDoc style APIs, either -- it's 900 pages of hand-crafted prose. There aren't too many open source frameworks (or frameworks of any stripe, for that matter) that can claim that.

As for the question in your subject -- Is Django a "Serious framework"?

Well, Instagram just got sold for $1 billion, and it's a Django site. AMD, Canonical, Discovery, Disqus, HP, IBM, Intel, Lexis-Nexis, the Library of Congress, Mozilla, NASA, National Geographic, the New York Times, Orbitz, PBS, Pinterest, Rdio, VMWare, Walt Disney, the Washington Post, and many, many more all use Django in some capacity. Sounds like a serious framework to me.

Is Django perfect? Certainly not. Is the documentation perfect? Certainly not. But is it a solid, scalable framework that has some of the most comprehensive documentation you'll find on an open source project? Yes.

We're always open to suggestions -- so if you can come up with any constructive suggestions on how we could improve the tutorial, the documentation, or the framework itself, feel free to make those suggestions.



Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
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Daniel Sokolowski
2012-04-11 14:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Would it be hard for django to check during syncdb and complain that a
schema migration is required for an app? I vaguely recall being stumped
myself after changing a model, running syndb and getting my first database
integrity error. I believe even a NOTE in the tutorial clarifying that
schema migration is not automatic yet would be sufficient.

First impression of new comers to django are rather important I believe.

-----Original Message-----
From: Russell Keith-Magee
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 8:54 AM
To: django-developers-/***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Django is not a serious framework, really
Post by Jason Ma
Hi,
I download and tried to use the Django 1.4 yesterday. I am a dummy
and I just follow the official document, but When I just start a
project.
.
├── hunqing
│ ├── __init__.py
│ ├── __init__.pyc
│ ├── settings.py
│ ├── settings.pyc
│ ├── urls.py
│ ├── urls.pyc
│ ├── wsgi.py
│ └── wsgi.pyc
├── __init__.py
├── manage.py
├── settings.py
└── urls.py
but what doc say?
mysite/
manage.py
mysite/
__init__.py
settings.py
urls.py
wsgi.py
First rule: If you're following a tutorial and want to follow along, you
need to actually follow the instructions as given. The tutorial asks you to
type:

django-admin.py startproject mysite
django-admin.py startproject hunqing

Furthermore, you've evidently run some of the code before you looked at the
directory structure. .pyc files are the Python runtime's precompiled byte
code output. If you look at the directory structure at the point the
tutorial asks you to, you shouldn't see any .pyc files.

If you're using an IDE, it's possible the IDE might have compiled these
files for you. Regardless, the existence of .pyc files shouldn't be a
surprise to anyone that has used Python before. Django's installation guides
tells you that you're going to need to install Python -- that should be
enough of a hint that you're probably going to need to know a little bit
about Python in order to use Django. Django's tutorial can't -- nor should
it -- teach you everything there is to know about Python. At some point, we
have to assume that you're going to learn the language that Django uses.
Post by Jason Ma
If you're a beginner, what are you going to say, yes, F! Why I created
more files? I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested
that carefully. Ok, forget that, We'll see and continue.
We've checked the tutorial quite carefully. To be doubly sure, I've just
worked through the start of the tutorial myself to make sure it matches what
is described -- and it does. If you follow the instructions as written, you
should get the output as described. If you don't follow the instructions as
written, then its anyone's guess what you'll get.
Post by Jason Ma
In the later chapter, we created two classes in the models.py in
polls, I do all the steps same as the doc except that one columns
name, mine is questions whereas the doc is question, so I want to test
the power of the syncdb, I modified the model.py and I just do the
python manage.py sql polls, that's ok, it is correct name this time.
So I just run it to change it in database using python manage.py
syncdb, it works too. But go to the db and see, the table is not
The syncdb command runs the SQL from sqlall on your database for all
apps in INSTALLED_APPS that don't already exist in your database. This
creates all the tables, initial data and indexes for any apps you've
added to your project since the last time you ran syncdb. syncdb can
be called as often as you like, and it will only ever create the
tables that don't exist.
That's gr8, If you just create the tables that don't exist, why do you
syncdb successfully? One basic rule of database is consistence, if you
can't created the tables you want, why don't get alert? I am not a
good programmer though, I do know if you can't do something, just say
it. How can I know the error without any prompt?
But it *does* give you a prompt.

When you run syncdb, the output tells you exactly what has, and what has
not, been created.

So, if a table for myapp.MyModel has been created, in the output of syncdb
you'll see a message that looks something like:

Creating table myapp_mymodel

If you then go and modify MyModel, and then run syncdb again, you won't see
this message. That means that the table hasn't been created as a result of
your syncdb call. If you run syncdb, and you *don't* see a "Creating table"
message that you were expecting, then you should probably go looking to see
why.
Post by Jason Ma
There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think it is true?
I may be biased, but I certainly think so.

If you print Django's documentation, it runs to over 900 pages. That's not
900 pages of auto generated JavaDoc style APIs, either -- it's 900 pages of
hand-crafted prose. There aren't too many open source frameworks (or
frameworks of any stripe, for that matter) that can claim that.

As for the question in your subject -- Is Django a "Serious framework"?

Well, Instagram just got sold for $1 billion, and it's a Django site. AMD,
Canonical, Discovery, Disqus, HP, IBM, Intel, Lexis-Nexis, the Library of
Congress, Mozilla, NASA, National Geographic, the New York Times, Orbitz,
PBS, Pinterest, Rdio, VMWare, Walt Disney, the Washington Post, and many,
many more all use Django in some capacity. Sounds like a serious framework
to me.

Is Django perfect? Certainly not. Is the documentation perfect? Certainly
not. But is it a solid, scalable framework that has some of the most
comprehensive documentation you'll find on an open source project? Yes.

We're always open to suggestions -- so if you can come up with any
constructive suggestions on how we could improve the tutorial, the
documentation, or the framework itself, feel free to make those suggestions.



Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
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Erik Stein
2012-04-11 18:37:00 UTC
Permalink
The other day I went back to one of my first django projects. It's running on production since 2007/2008 flawlessly serving a rather complex scientific database for about 100000 visits/month, still using django 1.1. The reason was that the current maintainer needed some help with the project and django.

I was extremely happy to see how easy it was to get back to an understanding of the code and to show the current maintainer what he missed. He is not a programmer, but only got some variables wrong and missed to write a view function.

The problem and another problem, too, were solved within an hour.

Django has it's limits, but it is one of the most serious frameworks out there. Thanks to everyone who contributes to it and especially to those who took the best of python and designed an API and project structure which prove to be well-arranged til today.

-- erik
[snip]


Erik Stein
Programmierung, Grafik
Oranienstr. 32 10999 Berlin, Germany
fon +49 30 69201880 fax +49 30 692018809
email erik-***@public.gmane.org
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Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
2012-04-11 23:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Yo Jason, I'm really sorry for you, and imma let you finish, but Django is
one of the best frameworks of all time.

(I knew I'd get a chance to use that meme one day!)
Post by Erik Stein
-- erik
[snip]
Erik Stein
Programmierung, Grafik
Oranienstr. 32 10999 Berlin, Germany
fon +49 30 69201880 fax +49 30 692018809
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Aymeric Augustin
2012-04-11 13:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jason,
I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested that carefully.
As one of the many people who replayed the tutorial from A to Z,
checked every little detail, updated screenshots, etc. before the
release of 1.4, I feel your feedback is rather unfair.
There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think  it is true?
Django's documentation assumes that the reader:
- has some familiarity with Python (e.g. knows what a __init__.py or a
*.pyc file is)
- is an autodidact and is able to investigate by himself when (s)he
deviates from the recommended path and encounters an unexpected
behavior (e.g. syncdb doesn't perform migrations).

Honestly, if this doesn't match your expectations at all, then Django
might not be the right framework for you.

I still believe our documentation compares favorably to most
open-source software entirely developed by volunteers in their free
time.

Best regards,
--
Aymeric.
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Juan Pablo Martínez
2012-04-11 13:33:00 UTC
Permalink
gooby pls :)

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Aymeric Augustin <
Post by Jan Schotsmans
Hi Jason,
I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested that carefully.
As one of the many people who replayed the tutorial from A to Z,
checked every little detail, updated screenshots, etc. before the
release of 1.4, I feel your feedback is rather unfair.
There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think it is true?
- has some familiarity with Python (e.g. knows what a __init__.py or a
*.pyc file is)
- is an autodidact and is able to investigate by himself when (s)he
deviates from the recommended path and encounters an unexpected
behavior (e.g. syncdb doesn't perform migrations).
Honestly, if this doesn't match your expectations at all, then Django
might not be the right framework for you.
I still believe our documentation compares favorably to most
open-source software entirely developed by volunteers in their free
time.
Best regards,
--
Aymeric.
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Babatunde Akinyanmi
2012-04-11 13:57:25 UTC
Permalink
I wonder why you guys are replying OP.
Post by Juan Pablo Martínez
gooby pls :)
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Aymeric Augustin <
Post by Jan Schotsmans
Hi Jason,
I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested that carefully.
As one of the many people who replayed the tutorial from A to Z,
checked every little detail, updated screenshots, etc. before the
release of 1.4, I feel your feedback is rather unfair.
There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think it is true?
- has some familiarity with Python (e.g. knows what a __init__.py or a
*.pyc file is)
- is an autodidact and is able to investigate by himself when (s)he
deviates from the recommended path and encounters an unexpected
behavior (e.g. syncdb doesn't perform migrations).
Honestly, if this doesn't match your expectations at all, then Django
might not be the right framework for you.
I still believe our documentation compares favorably to most
open-source software entirely developed by volunteers in their free
time.
Best regards,
--
Aymeric.
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ionic drive
2012-04-11 14:20:53 UTC
Permalink
I wonder how someone can write such a provocative message as the
thread-starter.

Django - is great - thanks for all!
Post by Babatunde Akinyanmi
I wonder why you guys are replying OP.
Post by Juan Pablo Martínez
gooby pls :)
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Aymeric Augustin <
Post by Jan Schotsmans
Hi Jason,
I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested that carefully.
As one of the many people who replayed the tutorial from A to Z,
checked every little detail, updated screenshots, etc. before the
release of 1.4, I feel your feedback is rather unfair.
There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think it is true?
- has some familiarity with Python (e.g. knows what a __init__.py or a
*.pyc file is)
- is an autodidact and is able to investigate by himself when (s)he
deviates from the recommended path and encounters an unexpected
behavior (e.g. syncdb doesn't perform migrations).
Honestly, if this doesn't match your expectations at all, then Django
might not be the right framework for you.
I still believe our documentation compares favorably to most
open-source software entirely developed by volunteers in their free
time.
Best regards,
--
Aymeric.
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bhuztez
2012-04-11 15:10:49 UTC
Permalink
The document clearly states that "You'll see a message for each
database table it creates".

I guess Jason Ma had a hard time reading the document because it is
written in English. Native Chinese speakers who are not quite familiar
with English will feel desperate when they had to read serveral pages
of document in English. Just imagine how desperate will you be if you
have to read pages of document in Chinese when you just learned Ni
Hao.

Django is getting more and more popular in China recently. More and
more people there are asking questions like how to do this or that in
Django, most of the time, it is just because it is too hard for them
to understand the document on their own. I propose that Django has a
Chinese translation of its document. Sure, there is a huge amount of
work. If core team decides to work on this, I would like to help.


Disclaimer: I do not know Jason Ma, I guess he is a Native Chinese
speaker because I googled his email found his email appears on some
Chinese website.


On 4月11日, 下午9时29分, Aymeric Augustin
Post by Jan Schotsmans
Hi Jason,
I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested that carefully.
As one of the many people who replayed the tutorial from A to Z,
checked every little detail, updated screenshots, etc. before the
release of 1.4, I feel your feedback is rather unfair.
There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think it is true?
- has some familiarity with Python (e.g. knows what a __init__.py or a
*.pyc file is)
- is an autodidact and is able to investigate by himself when (s)he
deviates from the recommended path and encounters an unexpected
behavior (e.g. syncdb doesn't perform migrations).
Honestly, if this doesn't match your expectations at all, then Django
might not be the right framework for you.
I still believe our documentation compares favorably to most
open-source software entirely developed by volunteers in their free
time.
Best regards,
--
Aymeric.
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Jan Schotsmans
2012-04-11 15:31:59 UTC
Permalink
I saw the Chinese date-stamp in his email and deducted the same, hence why
I said it might be wise to add the language of his installation, so people
are aware (but to django-users).

Don't really know what serveral pages are, but I do understand language
barrier problems :p (just kidding, hugz typo's)

As for a Chinese documentation project, I think that might be something for
the Chinese users, who are fluent in English, to do.
I don't think many of the devs are versed in Mandarin or Cantonese, (other
then the little Cantonese they might have picked up from watching movies
out of Hong Kong XD).

Personally, as I keep telling people in my lil country, even if it bothers
you, try doing stuff in other languages, knowing them will only benefit you
in the long run.
I personally hate dubbed TV shows, especially children programs for over
the age of 8. If they leave them in the native language, with subtitles,
the kids will pick up the basics of the languages very easily and the more
contact they have at a young age, with other languages, the more easily
they'll learn new languages throughout their life.

But, for older users, I can certainly understand it to be a potential
source of frustrations, even more so, if you are professionally tasked to
research the subject and don't have the time to get well versed in English.

r/Jan
Post by bhuztez
The document clearly states that "You'll see a message for each
database table it creates".
I guess Jason Ma had a hard time reading the document because it is
written in English. Native Chinese speakers who are not quite familiar
with English will feel desperate when they had to read serveral pages
of document in English. Just imagine how desperate will you be if you
have to read pages of document in Chinese when you just learned Ni
Hao.
Django is getting more and more popular in China recently. More and
more people there are asking questions like how to do this or that in
Django, most of the time, it is just because it is too hard for them
to understand the document on their own. I propose that Django has a
Chinese translation of its document. Sure, there is a huge amount of
work. If core team decides to work on this, I would like to help.
Disclaimer: I do not know Jason Ma, I guess he is a Native Chinese
speaker because I googled his email found his email appears on some
Chinese website.
On 4ÔÂ11ÈÕ, ÏÂÎç9ʱ29·Ö, Aymeric Augustin
Post by Jan Schotsmans
Hi Jason,
I heavily doubted that whether the writers have tested that carefully.
As one of the many people who replayed the tutorial from A to Z,
checked every little detail, updated screenshots, etc. before the
release of 1.4, I feel your feedback is rather unfair.
There are many people saying the Django is well-documented, do you
still think it is true?
- has some familiarity with Python (e.g. knows what a __init__.py or a
*.pyc file is)
- is an autodidact and is able to investigate by himself when (s)he
deviates from the recommended path and encounters an unexpected
behavior (e.g. syncdb doesn't perform migrations).
Honestly, if this doesn't match your expectations at all, then Django
might not be the right framework for you.
I still believe our documentation compares favorably to most
open-source software entirely developed by volunteers in their free
time.
Best regards,
--
Aymeric.
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Russell Keith-Magee
2012-04-11 23:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by bhuztez
The document clearly states that "You'll see a message for each
database table it creates".
I guess Jason Ma had a hard time reading the document because it is
written in English. Native Chinese speakers who are not quite familiar
with English will feel desperate when they had to read serveral pages
of document in English. Just imagine how desperate will you be if you
have to read pages of document in Chinese when you just learned Ni
Hao.
I studied Mandarin in high school, so I know *exactly* how desperate you get :-)

However, my point stands -- if he "just typed what was in the tutorial", then he *won't* get the result he described. He's doing *something* else. I have great sympathy and patience for anyone working through a language barrier, but I don't have sympathy for someone who doesn't follow the instructions, and then blames us because our instructions are wrong.
Post by bhuztez
Django is getting more and more popular in China recently. More and
more people there are asking questions like how to do this or that in
Django, most of the time, it is just because it is too hard for them
to understand the document on their own. I propose that Django has a
Chinese translation of its document. Sure, there is a huge amount of
work. If core team decides to work on this, I would like to help.
If someone wants to take on the task of writing and maintaining a translating of the tutorial (or the whole documentation base), I'm sure we can find a way to host it. We've always been very proud of our internationalization infrastructure, and I see no reason why this shouldn't be extended to our documentation. At one point, I believe there was a French translation of the docs; however, I don't know if that is still being maintained.

Ideally, we'd have some sort of toolset to help with this sort of translation (just like we have Transifex for the in-app strings) -- but failing that, simple text with a clear warning that it possibly lags behind the English translation will probably suffice.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
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Carl Meyer
2012-04-12 18:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jason,
Post by Jason Ma
Hi,
I download and tried to use the Django 1.4 yesterday. I am a dummy
and I just follow the official document, but When I just start a
project.
.
├── hunqing
│ ├── __init__.py
│ ├── __init__.pyc
│ ├── settings.py
│ ├── settings.pyc
│ ├── urls.py
│ ├── urls.pyc
│ ├── wsgi.py
│ └── wsgi.pyc
├── __init__.py
├── manage.py
├── settings.py
└── urls.py
but what doc say?
mysite/
manage.py
mysite/
__init__.py
settings.py
urls.py
wsgi.py
Others have commented on the pyc files, but I don't think that's really
the point here. The point is that there is an extra __init__.py,
settings.py, and urls.py in the outer directory next to manage.py that
should not be there.

This is definitely a bug, and it's one that I've already seen reported
several times, but it is not a bug in Django. With a clean installation
of Django 1.4, the tutorial steps work as advertised. This bug occurs if
somehow your installation of Django 1.4 is "layered" on top of an
installation of Django 1.3, without the 1.3 installation ever having
been removed. I'm not sure how this happens, but my best guess is that
it could happen if you are using a very old version of pip (like, pip
0.3 era, before pip gained uninstall support). You're most likely to be
using an old pip if you are using a Linux distribution's packaged pip;
those tend to be quite outdated.

If you are interested in helping to solve this issue (as opposed to, for
instance, trollish hyperbole), it would be very helpful to know what
operating system and version you are using, and how you installed Django
1.4 (i.e the exact commands you used).

Thanks!

Carl
Alex Ogier
2012-04-12 19:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Maybe it would be worth experimenting with various combinations of django
1.x django-admin.py executables with django 1.4 libraries? Maybe if
django-admin.py is a symlink into a 1.3 tree but django 1.4 is on the
search path this stuff could crop up?

Best,
Alex Ogier
Post by Jan Schotsmans
Hi Jason,
Post by Jason Ma
Hi,
I download and tried to use the Django 1.4 yesterday. I am a dummy
and I just follow the official document, but When I just start a
project.
.
├── hunqing
│ ├── __init__.py
│ ├── __init__.pyc
│ ├── settings.py
│ ├── settings.pyc
│ ├── urls.py
│ ├── urls.pyc
│ ├── wsgi.py
│ └── wsgi.pyc
├── __init__.py
├── manage.py
├── settings.py
└── urls.py
but what doc say?
mysite/
manage.py
mysite/
__init__.py
settings.py
urls.py
wsgi.py
Others have commented on the pyc files, but I don't think that's really
the point here. The point is that there is an extra __init__.py,
settings.py, and urls.py in the outer directory next to manage.py that
should not be there.
This is definitely a bug, and it's one that I've already seen reported
several times, but it is not a bug in Django. With a clean installation
of Django 1.4, the tutorial steps work as advertised. This bug occurs if
somehow your installation of Django 1.4 is "layered" on top of an
installation of Django 1.3, without the 1.3 installation ever having
been removed. I'm not sure how this happens, but my best guess is that
it could happen if you are using a very old version of pip (like, pip
0.3 era, before pip gained uninstall support). You're most likely to be
using an old pip if you are using a Linux distribution's packaged pip;
those tend to be quite outdated.
If you are interested in helping to solve this issue (as opposed to, for
instance, trollish hyperbole), it would be very helpful to know what
operating system and version you are using, and how you installed Django
1.4 (i.e the exact commands you used).
Thanks!
Carl
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Carl Meyer
2012-04-12 19:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Alex,
Post by Alex Ogier
Maybe it would be worth experimenting with various combinations of
django 1.x django-admin.py executables with django 1.4 libraries? Maybe
if django-admin.py is a symlink into a 1.3 tree but django 1.4 is on the
search path this stuff could crop up?
Sorry, I wasn't clear - I already know what the immediate cause of the
problem is, and it's easy to reproduce manually.

"startproject" takes the actual files in django/conf/project_template/
as the template for the new project. If an installation of Django 1.4 is
installed over top of an installation of Django 1.3 (and I mean
literally on top of, in the same filesystem tree), then the project
template files that were moved to a subdirectory in 1.4 (__init__.py,
urls.py, settings.py) are found in both locations. So even if it's
purely the 1.4 startproject code running, it'll install these extra
files, because it finds them there in the project template.

The open question is just how this situation occurs in the first place.
In other words, which particular buggy installer or installation
technique is causing an overlaid installation like that, so we can warn
people away from it and better advise them how to fix it.

Carl
Aymeric Augustin
2012-04-12 21:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Meyer
The open question is just how this situation occurs in the first place.
In other words, which particular buggy installer or installation
technique is causing an overlaid installation like that, so we can warn
people away from it and better advise them how to fix it.
This problem occurs at least when you run "setup.py install" before and after the commit that introduced the new project layout.

Some people who had the habit of running "setup.py install" from a git clone to keep up-to-date with the development version reported the problem.
(Just to be 100% clear — this technique doesn't work because it doesn't remove .py or .pyc files that are removed from Django.)
As a result, I added a warning to the docs in r17636.

Most likely, installing 1.4 with "setup.py install", as explained in our docs [1], has the same result when 1.3 was previously installed in the same fashion.

I suggest we add a warning to this section of the docs: "if a previous version of Django is installed, go delete it manually in your site-packages directory" (unless there's a better method to remove a Python package?)

Best regards,
--
Aymeric.

[1] https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/install/#installing-an-official-release-manually
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Alex Ogier
2012-04-12 21:27:26 UTC
Permalink
That seems like too much to ask. "setup.py install" should Just Work(tm),
and if django requires that a certain directory be clean of any .py files
in order to function properly then "setup.py install" should make that
happen. The note might still be valuable, because we should inform people
that untar-ing a version on top of another can cause problems like this,
but breaking "setup.py install" shouldn't be necessary.

If none of these are acceptable, then we can always use a different
directory (django/conf/project_template_new), so that conflicts don't
happen. It's a bit hacky but it would work.

Best,
Alex Ogier

On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Aymeric Augustin <
Post by Aymeric Augustin
Post by Carl Meyer
The open question is just how this situation occurs in the first place.
In other words, which particular buggy installer or installation
technique is causing an overlaid installation like that, so we can warn
people away from it and better advise them how to fix it.
This problem occurs at least when you run "setup.py install" before and
after the commit that introduced the new project layout.
Some people who had the habit of running "setup.py install" from a git
clone to keep up-to-date with the development version reported the problem.
(Just to be 100% clear — this technique doesn't work because it doesn't
remove .py or .pyc files that are removed from Django.)
As a result, I added a warning to the docs in r17636.
Most likely, installing 1.4 with "setup.py install", as explained in our
docs [1], has the same result when 1.3 was previously installed in the same
fashion.
I suggest we add a warning to this section of the docs: "if a previous
version of Django is installed, go delete it manually in your site-packages
directory" (unless there's a better method to remove a Python package?)
Best regards,
--
Aymeric.
[1]
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/install/#installing-an-official-release-manually
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Carl Meyer
2012-04-12 22:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Ogier
That seems like too much to ask. "setup.py install" should Just
Work(tm), and if django requires that a certain directory be clean of
any .py files in order to function properly then "setup.py install"
should make that happen. The note might still be valuable, because we
should inform people that untar-ing a version on top of another can
cause problems like this, but breaking "setup.py install" shouldn't be
necessary.
Who is breaking or proposing to break "setup.py install"? Distutils
never designed "setup.py install" to support repeated installations into
the same location without removing the old version first. You could
argue that's an issue with distutils, but it's certainly not in scope
for Django to fix. In general, an installed Python package should be
able to assume that there aren't random additional .py files scattered
about in its source tree that aren't part of the source tree for that
version.

The correct solution is to warn people away from using installation
techniques in ways they were not intended to be used, and that don't
work correctly. Repeated use of "setup.py install" without removing the
previously-installed version is inherently broken; if we work around one
specific case where it breaks, there will be others in the future (there
probably already are).
Post by Alex Ogier
If none of these are acceptable, then we can always use a different
directory (django/conf/project_template_new), so that conflicts don't
happen. It's a bit hacky but it would work.
No thanks.

Carl
Alex Ogier
2012-04-12 22:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Meyer
The correct solution is to warn people away from using installation
techniques in ways they were not intended to be used, and that don't
work correctly. Repeated use of "setup.py install" without removing the
previously-installed version is inherently broken; if we work around one
specific case where it breaks, there will be others in the future (there
probably already are).
There are ways to support cleaning directories as part of the 'install'
command, for example 'distutils.dir_util.remove_tree'. Adding that for our
specific directory that needs to be clean should work, yes?

Best,
Alex Ogier
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Carl Meyer
2012-04-12 22:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi Alex,
Post by Alex Ogier
Post by Carl Meyer
The correct solution is to warn people away from using installation
techniques in ways they were not intended to be used, and that don't
work correctly. Repeated use of "setup.py install" without removing the
previously-installed version is inherently broken; if we work around one
specific case where it breaks, there will be others in the future (there
probably already are).
There are ways to support cleaning directories as part of the 'install'
command, for example 'distutils.dir_util.remove_tree'. Adding that for
our specific directory that needs to be clean should work, yes?
The entire django/ subtree should be clean before a new install of
Django, not just the new project template. Startproject is not unique,
just more visibly problematic. Off the top of my head, a stray file in
the built-in management commands directory would also cause an issue -
and a stray .py file anywhere would cause imports to continue to work
(and bring in outdated code) when they ought to fail for that version of
Django.

I'm firmly -1 on any workaround that specifically targets the project
template; it's just encouraging people to continue to use an
installation method that will cause other breakages, perhaps subtler ones.

It's possible that Django's setup.py could manually remove the entire
django/ directory from the target site-packages, but I don't think that
would be a good idea either; it'd be non-standard behavior that would
break the expectations of anyone who's used other setup.py files.

I still think the right solution is to encourage (via the documentation)
installation practices that work reliably, not to try to apply piecemeal
workarounds to specific breakages caused by installation practices that
don't work reliably (and still won't after the piecemeal workaround).

Carl
Luciano Pacheco
2012-04-13 00:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Meyer
Hi Alex,
[...]
Post by Carl Meyer
I still think the right solution is to encourage (via the documentation)
installation practices that work reliably, not to try to apply piecemeal
workarounds to specific breakages caused by installation practices that
don't work reliably (and still won't after the piecemeal workaround).
import django
django.VERSION
(1, 3, 0, 'final', 0)
Post by Carl Meyer
django.__file__
'/home/lucianopacheco/src/tmp_py/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/django/__init__.pyc'


So, it will be much more clear to people not familiar with python
installation structure to understand what "site-packages" means.

[],
--
Luciano Pacheco
blog.lucmult.com.br
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Ben Finney
2012-04-13 03:56:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Ogier
That seems like too much to ask. "setup.py install" should Just Work(tm),
In the absence of a proper package management system (as implemented in
operating systems that solved this problem decades ago), you can't
expect it to Just Work. Parallel installation of multiple versions,
detection of previous versions, upgrade and uninstallation, dependency
management – these are problems solved by a package manager, and
‘setup.py’ doesn't play well with them.

Python's ‘setup.py’ can't be expected to do the job of a package
manager, especially not in parallel to the OS which often has its own
package manager.
--
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`\ Lily Tomlin |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
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Alex Ogier
2012-04-13 04:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Finney
Post by Alex Ogier
That seems like too much to ask. "setup.py install" should Just Work(tm),
In the absence of a proper package management system (as implemented in
operating systems that solved this problem decades ago), you can't
expect it to Just Work. Parallel installation of multiple versions,
detection of previous versions, upgrade and uninstallation, dependency
management – these are problems solved by a package manager, and
‘setup.py’ doesn't play well with them.
Python's ‘setup.py’ can't be expected to do the job of a package
manager, especially not in parallel to the OS which often has its own
package manager.
The problem is that not everyone uses package managers. A reasonable
way to track django trunk for example is to periodically pull and run
"setup.py install" which is in most cases approximately idempotent. I
have seen setup.py's that use remove_tree as part of a "clean" command
to allow someone to run "setup.py clean && setup.py install" to obtain
a pristine distribution idempotently, which I think is a good idea.
The alternative is to have everyone remember to "rm -rf" their
site-packages django every time they run setup.py install which is a
bit unsavory in my opinion.

If someone has managed to get extra files in their site-packages,
because at any point they followed a tutorial on how to build from
source, then their django installation is basically caput until they
manually "rm -rf" a deep library path. One option is to document this
and explain what to do, but this really isn't very discoverable
because telling people that when django is broken, running "sudo rm
-rf" in their python site-packages might fix it is rather akin to
someone calling tech support and them asking, "Well, did you turn off
your computer and turn it on again?" It might fix the problem, but
it's invasive and time-consuming and it shouldn't be necessary.

The "real" solution to this problem is to stop treating the existence
of files as implicit indication of their inclusion in Django. That
would mean listing somewhere the files from
django/conf/project_template/ that should be included, which isn't
very DRY, but is the only 100% solution I think.

I was bit by this sort of thing a few weeks ago. I had just removed
the simplejson/__init__.py{c,} module and related code and installed a
shim at simplejson.py, all in a feature branch in git. Imagine my
surprise, upon switching to the feature branch several days later, I
found that django was using the old version. The reason was that when
I switched back to the master branch, the simplejson/__init__.pyc was
recompiled and upon checkout out the feature branch git happily
ignored all the .pyc files in my tree. Python saw them and assumed I
had a compiled version of the module and continued using them. So,
that should give you some idea of the perils of not cleaning your
output directories (or in this case, input directory).

My recommendation is to make "setup.py clean" do everything possible
to ensure idempotent installation across any version, document that,
and call it a day. Yes, Django can't make up for people who circumvent
their package manager, but we can make it a lot easier to fix than
sending newbies off into their system libraries armed with superuser
permissions and "rm -rf".

Best,
Alex Ogier
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Florian Apolloner
2012-04-13 06:15:45 UTC
Permalink
I have seen setup.py's that use remove_tree as part of a "clean" command
to allow someone to run "setup.py clean && setup.py install" to obtain
a pristine distribution idempotently, which I think is a good idea.
No, they should work on fixing distutils instead of creating solutions
which probably could break even worse.
The alternative is to have everyone remember to "rm -rf" their
site-packages django every time they run setup.py install which is a
bit unsavory in my opinion.
Or just tell them to use either pip even for development installs or just
set their PYTHONPATH.
If someone has managed to get extra files in their site-packages,
because at any point they followed a tutorial on how to build from
source, then their django installation is basically caput until they
manually "rm -rf" a deep library path. One option is to document this
and explain what to do
You made me lol, that approach is documented in the install guide:
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/intro/install/#remove-any-old-versions-of-django
-- If people would actually read the docs this issue wouldn't exist. FWIW
the docs also mention to symlink a dev checkout and don't tell you to run
setup.py
That would mean listing somewhere the files from
django/conf/project_template/ that should be included, which isn't
very DRY, but is the only 100% solution I think.
Given that the documentation shows how to do it properly I don't see any
point. Especially since this problem isn't related to the project_template
alone -- that's just where it's most visible.
So, that should give you some idea of the perils of not cleaning your
output directories (or in this case, input directory).
We are aware of those, and fwiw: If you use git and switch branches it's up
to you to know how python works and how git clean works, or do you want to
suggest that django should rm al pyc files on startup?!
My recommendation is to make "setup.py clean" do everything possible
to ensure idempotent installation across any version, document that,
and call it a day.
What's wrong with the current documented approach? (Aside from the fact
that people don't read it, but then again they won't read the setup.py
clean either).

Regards,
Florian
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Daniel Sokolowski
2012-04-13 14:30:58 UTC
Permalink
People won’t always read all the docs – it’s a fact – so sooner or later some other new comer will experience this issue complain, gave up and worse even blog his/hers negative experience. We do want the newbie experience to be as painless as possible which means popularity and growth of the framework - and ultimately continuation of our paying jobs.

This thread was started by a newbie to the framework, putting aside the confrontational tone it stated some valid concerns from a beginners perspective – a very important perspective.

I’ve been using django for a long time and had no idea about this ‘distutils’ caveat; I do not understand or know how django installs setup process works but am up for some kind of a warning/error directly to the console.

Thank you for reading my opinion.

Daniel
From: Florian Apolloner
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 2:15 AM
To: django-developers-/***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: extra files in startproject



On Friday, April 13, 2012 6:49:32 AM UTC+2, Alex Ogier wrote:
I have seen setup.py's that use remove_tree as part of a "clean" command
to allow someone to run "setup.py clean && setup.py install" to obtain
a pristine distribution idempotently, which I think is a good idea.


No, they should work on fixing distutils instead of creating solutions which probably could break even worse.


The alternative is to have everyone remember to "rm -rf" their
site-packages django every time they run setup.py install which is a
bit unsavory in my opinion.

Or just tell them to use either pip even for development installs or just set their PYTHONPATH.


If someone has managed to get extra files in their site-packages,
because at any point they followed a tutorial on how to build from
source, then their django installation is basically caput until they
manually "rm -rf" a deep library path. One option is to document this
and explain what to do

You made me lol, that approach is documented in the install guide: https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/intro/install/#remove-any-old-versions-of-django -- If people would actually read the docs this issue wouldn't exist. FWIW the docs also mention to symlink a dev checkout and don't tell you to run setup.py


That would mean listing somewhere the files from
django/conf/project_template/ that should be included, which isn't
very DRY, but is the only 100% solution I think.

Given that the documentation shows how to do it properly I don't see any point. Especially since this problem isn't related to the project_template alone -- that's just where it's most visible.


So, that should give you some idea of the perils of not cleaning your
output directories (or in this case, input directory).

We are aware of those, and fwiw: If you use git and switch branches it's up to you to know how python works and how git clean works, or do you want to suggest that django should rm al pyc files on startup?!

My recommendation is to make "setup.py clean" do everything possible
to ensure idempotent installation across any version, document that,
and call it a day.

What's wrong with the current documented approach? (Aside from the fact that people don't read it, but then again they won't read the setup.py clean either).

Regards,
Florian
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Carl Meyer
2012-04-13 14:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Sokolowski
People won’t always read all the docs – it’s a fact – so sooner or later
some other new comer will experience this issue complain, gave up and
worse even blog his/hers negative experience. We do want the newbie
experience to be as painless as possible which means popularity and
growth of the framework - and ultimately continuation of our paying jobs.
This thread was started by a newbie to the framework, putting aside the
confrontational tone it stated some valid concerns from a beginners
perspective – a very important perspective.
I’ve been using django for a long time and had no idea about this
‘distutils’ caveat; I do not understand or know how django installs
setup process works but am up for some kind of a warning/error directly
to the console.
Thanks Daniel. I'm experimenting right now with a patch to setup.py that
would print a loud warning to console if it detects an existing django/
directory in the target site-packages.

Carl
Daniel Sokolowski
2012-04-13 14:47:34 UTC
Permalink
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You sir are Epic!

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Meyer
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 10:33 AM
To: django-developers-/***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: extra files in startproject
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Carl Meyer
2012-04-13 18:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Meyer
Thanks Daniel. I'm experimenting right now with a patch to setup.py that
would print a loud warning to console if it detects an existing django/
directory in the target site-packages.
I've filed a pull request (https://github.com/django/django/pull/136)
with this setup.py modification and some documentation edits (and also
linked it from #18115, of course). Review and comment welcome!

Carl
Daniel Sokolowski
2012-04-13 19:57:11 UTC
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Hi Carl,

Looks fine to me, and I think throwing the warning at the end is indeed a
good idea.

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Meyer
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 2:20 PM
To: django-developers-/***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: extra files in startproject
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Jan Schotsmans
2012-04-13 14:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Tbh, you can not go cater to this type of new users, that start badmouthing
the project right out the gate, with the first hint of trouble, either
becoming insulting, out right, on the developer list, or doing as you put
in your example, posting bad things on their blogs.

If Jason had sent a mail to the developers list stating, "this is the
problem I'm having, this is my installation, any idea's?", then we wouldn't
have had 10 people defend Django before one came up with "this may be a
longshot to be confirmed with further system information, but this seems to
be a problem that isn't related to Django itself, but to an unclean
installation environment with full or partial, duplicate Django
installations."

I did respond to him to post his installation base and details about the
system he is using, and so have others, but he hasn't responded since, even
though there has been quite a decent discussion going about the source of
the problem and a possible solution to protect installations against it
happening, even though it isn't really Django's fault that package
management systems cause the problem, nor is Django in the power to fix
"ALL" package management systems that can cause this to happen and most
certainly isn't able to protect against this behavior entirely, in case a
manual/custom installation is done.

Yes, you can make it as easy as as humanly possible for new users, but no,
you shouldn't have to go out of your way to cater to users that act like
this.
Post by Daniel Sokolowski
People won’t always read all the docs – it’s a fact – so sooner or
later some other new comer will experience this issue complain, gave up and
worse even blog his/hers negative experience. We do want the newbie
experience to be as painless as possible which means popularity and growth
of the framework - and ultimately continuation of our paying jobs.
This thread was started by a newbie to the framework, putting aside the
confrontational tone it stated some valid concerns from a beginners
perspective – a very important perspective.
I’ve been using django for a long time and had no idea about this
‘distutils’ caveat; I do not understand or know how django installs setup
process works but am up for some kind of a warning/error directly to the
console.
Thank you for reading my opinion.
Daniel
*Sent:* Friday, April 13, 2012 2:15 AM
*Subject:* Re: extra files in startproject
I have seen setup.py's that use remove_tree as part of a "clean" command
to allow someone to run "setup.py clean && setup.py install" to obtain
a pristine distribution idempotently, which I think is a good idea.
No, they should work on fixing distutils instead of creating solutions
which probably could break even worse.
The alternative is to have everyone remember to "rm -rf" their
site-packages django every time they run setup.py install which is a
bit unsavory in my opinion.
Or just tell them to use either pip even for development installs or just
set their PYTHONPATH.
If someone has managed to get extra files in their site-packages,
because at any point they followed a tutorial on how to build from
source, then their django installation is basically caput until they
manually "rm -rf" a deep library path. One option is to document this
and explain what to do
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/intro/install/#remove-any-old-versions-of-django-- If people would actually read the docs this issue wouldn't exist. FWIW
the docs also mention to symlink a dev checkout and don't tell you to run
setup.py
That would mean listing somewhere the files from
django/conf/project_template/ that should be included, which isn't
very DRY, but is the only 100% solution I think.
Given that the documentation shows how to do it properly I don't see any
point. Especially since this problem isn't related to the project_template
alone -- that's just where it's most visible.
So, that should give you some idea of the perils of not cleaning your
output directories (or in this case, input directory).
We are aware of those, and fwiw: If you use git and switch branches it's
up to you to know how python works and how git clean works, or do you want
to suggest that django should rm al pyc files on startup?!
My recommendation is to make "setup.py clean" do everything possible
to ensure idempotent installation across any version, document that,
and call it a day.
What's wrong with the current documented approach? (Aside from the fact
that people don't read it, but then again they won't read the setup.py
clean either).
Regards,
Florian
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Aymeric Augustin
2012-04-13 07:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aymeric Augustin
Some people who had the habit of running "setup.py install" from a git clone to keep up-to-date with the development version reported the problem.
(Just to be 100% clear — this technique doesn't work because it doesn't remove .py or .pyc files that are removed from Django.)
A reasonable
way to track django trunk for example is to periodically pull and run
"setup.py install" which is in most cases approximately idempotent.
No, this isn't a reasonable alternative, and installing software isn't an approximative operation.

Here's another example: this installation technique wouldn't reflect the changes in r17842 [1] properly — two files were removed. #18069 [2] was filed as a result.
The link between the problem and its cause was particularly tenuous in this case.

[1] https://code.djangoproject.com/changeset/17842
[2] https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/18069

So a documentation fix might not be sufficient to eradicate the problem. Could we add this in a pre-install hook in setup.py?

try:
import django
except ImportError:
pass
else:
print "It appears that Django %s is already installed." % django.get_version()
print "If you want to upgrade Django, please remove the existing installation first."
sys.exit(1)

To support pip install --upgrade, this code should be executed right before the new version is installed. I don't know very well what's possible with distutils.

Best regards,
--
Aymeric.
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Luciano Pacheco
2012-04-13 07:30:09 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Aymeric Augustin <
[...]
Post by Aymeric Augustin
So a documentation fix might not be sufficient to eradicate the problem.
Could we add this in a pre-install hook in setup.py?
import django
pass
print "It appears that Django %s is already installed." %
django.get_version()
print "If you want to upgrade Django, please remove the existing installation first."
sys.exit(1)
This "import django" will work even when django is not installed, because
usually "python setup.py " is ran from checkout of django, that contains
the valid folder (python package) named "django". So, this "import django"
will import relative to current directory and will work.

[],
--
Luciano Pacheco
blog.lucmult.com.br
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Alex Ogier
2012-04-13 07:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luciano Pacheco
This "import django" will work even when django is not installed, because
usually "python setup.py " is ran from checkout of django, that contains
the valid folder (python package) named "django". So, this "import django"
will import relative to current directory and will work.
And in fact, this behavior is relied upon. Django's setup.py imports the
relative django to get the version number.

Best,
Alex Ogier
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Carl Meyer
2012-04-13 14:22:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi Alex,
Post by Alex Ogier
The problem is that not everyone uses package managers. A reasonable
way to track django trunk for example is to periodically pull and run
"setup.py install" which is in most cases approximately idempotent. I
have seen setup.py's that use remove_tree as part of a "clean" command
to allow someone to run "setup.py clean && setup.py install" to obtain
a pristine distribution idempotently, which I think is a good idea.
The alternative is to have everyone remember to "rm -rf" their
site-packages django every time they run setup.py install which is a
bit unsavory in my opinion.
I do agree that asking newer users to go digging in site-packages with
"rm -rf" is sub-optimal. I think the first-line answer is to discourage
newer users (and anyone, really) from installing Django using "python
setup.py install", so they'll never have to. As a second-line answer,
I'm open to the idea of "python setup.py clean" as an alternative to
manual rm -rf in site-packages, if you can provide a reliable
implementation of it as a patch attached to #18115 (and no other core
developer vetoes the idea; James Bennett in particular has traditionally
been the guardian of Django's setup.py).
Post by Alex Ogier
The "real" solution to this problem is to stop treating the existence
of files as implicit indication of their inclusion in Django.
This is requesting a flat-out impossibility, since "existence of files
implies their inclusion" is simply *how Python module imports work*. If
a .py file exists somewhere under django/ in a directory with an
__init__.py, it can be imported as part of Django.
Post by Alex Ogier
would mean listing somewhere the files from
django/conf/project_template/ that should be included, which isn't
very DRY, but is the only 100% solution I think.
I think this is now the fourth or fifth time it's been pointed out that
the problem is not limited to startproject (and you yourself
demonstrated that with your own simplejson example!), so I'm a bit
mystified how you can still refer to this as a "100% solution."
Post by Alex Ogier
My recommendation is to make "setup.py clean" do everything possible
to ensure idempotent installation across any version, document that,
and call it a day. Yes, Django can't make up for people who circumvent
their package manager, but we can make it a lot easier to fix than
sending newbies off into their system libraries armed with superuser
permissions and "rm -rf".
Agreed.

Carl
Carl Meyer
2012-04-12 22:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aymeric Augustin
This problem occurs at least when you run "setup.py install" before
and after the commit that introduced the new project layout.
Some people who had the habit of running "setup.py install" from a
git clone to keep up-to-date with the development version reported
the problem. (Just to be 100% clear — this technique doesn't work
because it doesn't remove .py or .pyc files that are removed from
Django.) As a result, I added a warning to the docs in r17636.
Ah, this makes sense. Thanks!
Post by Aymeric Augustin
Most likely, installing 1.4 with "setup.py install", as explained in
our docs [1], has the same result when 1.3 was previously installed
in the same fashion.
Yes, it would.
Post by Aymeric Augustin
I suggest we add a warning to this section of the docs: "if a
previous version of Django is installed, go delete it manually in
your site-packages directory" (unless there's a better method to
remove a Python package?)
The "better way" would normally be "pip uninstall". Unfortunately, since
Django's setup.py uses pure distutils (not setuptools), installing
Django with "python setup.py install" does not record any metadata along
with the installation, making an automated uninstall impossible. So the
only workable technique is to manually remove the "django" directory
from site-packages.

I agree that we should add a documentation warning about this. I think
the current warning is not quite in the right place, as it follows the
section on installing via a pth file or symbolic link. "setup.py
install" should not be used in that case, but not for reasons of the
above bug, rather simply because it's not needed. So (IMO) it's
confusing to combine the warnings.

I've filed #18115 to track this.

Carl
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