Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Tim Graham]

I can't find a past discussion specific to Oracle, but it's not a new
proposal. See
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/O-g06EM6XMM/discussion
for "Moving database backends out of the core."

I think removing Oracle from core would only increase the maintenance
burden. Since Oracle has edge cases, it's useful to test those along with
new Django features. If the Oracle backend is in a separate repo, then
adding new features will often require commits to two repositories and I
don't know how we would run the tests with pull request X for Django and
pull request Y for the Oracle backend. Then we also have to release the
Oracle backend separately.

djangoci.com isn't reporting any Oracle failures on master. If you've found
an issue, please open a ticket with details.

We don't run the Oracle tests with pull requests because they take about an
hour, while other databases take about 10 minutes. It hasn't been difficult
to identify which pull requests require running the tests on Oracle and to
trigger that build with the trigger phrase.

Hi there,
I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to
realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor
implementation of the Oracle backend.
Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that the
current master, fails on oracle ;)
Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0
release?
- License
- Oracle is Proprietary software
- Money
- Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes 40bn
in revenue
- Oracle does not support may features
- due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the
base database backend which drives overall complexity
- Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is
broken right now
- entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
- one needs to accept a non open source license
- register with oracle
- go through a very complex setup process
Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep
them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed
separately from Django.
This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is
enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what
Django want's to offer.
Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
Best
-Joe

[André Luis Pereira dos Santos]

Move database backends out of the Django's core sounds great.

Post by Tim Graham
I can't find a past discussion specific to Oracle, but it's not a new
proposal. See
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/O-g06EM6XMM/discussion
for "Moving database backends out of the core."
I think removing Oracle from core would only increase the maintenance
burden. Since Oracle has edge cases, it's useful to test those along with
new Django features. If the Oracle backend is in a separate repo, then
adding new features will often require commits to two repositories and I
don't know how we would run the tests with pull request X for Django and
pull request Y for the Oracle backend. Then we also have to release the
Oracle backend separately.
djangoci.com isn't reporting any Oracle failures on master. If you've
found an issue, please open a ticket with details.
We don't run the Oracle tests with pull requests because they take about
an hour, while other databases take about 10 minutes. It hasn't been
difficult to identify which pull requests require running the tests on
Oracle and to trigger that build with the trigger phrase.

Hi there,
I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to
realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor
implementation of the Oracle backend.
Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that
the current master, fails on oracle ;)
Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0
release?
- License
- Oracle is Proprietary software
- Money
- Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes 40bn
in revenue
- Oracle does not support may features
- due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the
base database backend which drives overall complexity
- Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is
broken right now
- entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
- one needs to accept a non open source license
- register with oracle
- go through a very complex setup process
Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep
them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed
separately from Django.
This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is
enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what
Django want's to offer.
Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
Best
-Joe

[Adam Johnson]

Interestingly, I didn't receive your first email Johannes, only Tim's
reply. I can't even find it in spam. Maybe Gmail's filters highly associate
mentions of "Oracle" with spam? :/

I agree that with Tim that it's going to be easier to keep it in core if
development is going to continue. Any suggestion that unbundling it would
improve its support lifecycle should be well backend by Django+Oracle users
themselves, which I take it you aren't Johannes.

Post by Tim Graham
I can't find a past discussion specific to Oracle, but it's not a new
proposal. See
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/O-g06EM6XMM/discussion
for "Moving database backends out of the core."
I think removing Oracle from core would only increase the maintenance
burden. Since Oracle has edge cases, it's useful to test those along with
new Django features. If the Oracle backend is in a separate repo, then
adding new features will often require commits to two repositories and I
don't know how we would run the tests with pull request X for Django and
pull request Y for the Oracle backend. Then we also have to release the
Oracle backend separately.
djangoci.com isn't reporting any Oracle failures on master. If you've
found an issue, please open a ticket with details.
We don't run the Oracle tests with pull requests because they take about
an hour, while other databases take about 10 minutes. It hasn't been
difficult to identify which pull requests require running the tests on
Oracle and to trigger that build with the trigger phrase.

Hi there,
I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to
realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor
implementation of the Oracle backend.
Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that
the current master, fails on oracle ;)
Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0
release?
- License
- Oracle is Proprietary software
- Money
- Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes 40bn
in revenue
- Oracle does not support may features
- due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the
base database backend which drives overall complexity
- Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is
broken right now
- entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
- one needs to accept a non open source license
- register with oracle
- go through a very complex setup process
Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep
them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed
separately from Django.
This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is
enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what
Django want's to offer.
Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
Best
-Joe

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[Dan Davis]

My employer is an Oracle shop. I would dedicate myself to Oracle specific
bugs to prevent removing Oracle from core. That said, we'll probably be
off Oracle and onto the cloud and Postgresql by 3.0.

Post by Adam Johnson
Interestingly, I didn't receive your first email Johannes, only Tim's
reply. I can't even find it in spam. Maybe Gmail's filters highly associate
mentions of "Oracle" with spam? :/
I agree that with Tim that it's going to be easier to keep it in core if
development is going to continue. Any suggestion that unbundling it would
improve its support lifecycle should be well backend by Django+Oracle users
themselves, which I take it you aren't Johannes.

Post by Tim Graham
I can't find a past discussion specific to Oracle, but it's not a new
proposal. See
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/O-g06EM6XMM/discussion
for "Moving database backends out of the core."
I think removing Oracle from core would only increase the maintenance
burden. Since Oracle has edge cases, it's useful to test those along with
new Django features. If the Oracle backend is in a separate repo, then
adding new features will often require commits to two repositories and I
don't know how we would run the tests with pull request X for Django and
pull request Y for the Oracle backend. Then we also have to release the
Oracle backend separately.
djangoci.com isn't reporting any Oracle failures on master. If you've
found an issue, please open a ticket with details.
We don't run the Oracle tests with pull requests because they take about
an hour, while other databases take about 10 minutes. It hasn't been
difficult to identify which pull requests require running the tests on
Oracle and to trigger that build with the trigger phrase.

Hi there,
I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to
realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor
implementation of the Oracle backend.
Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that
the current master, fails on oracle ;)
Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0
release?
- License
- Oracle is Proprietary software
- Money
- Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes
40bn in revenue
- Oracle does not support may features
- due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the
base database backend which drives overall complexity
- Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is
broken right now
- entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
- one needs to accept a non open source license
- register with oracle
- go through a very complex setup process
Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep
them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed
separately from Django.
This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is
enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what
Django want's to offer.
Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
Best
-Joe

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[Mariusz Felisiak]

Hi

I don't agree that the Oracle back-end is poor implemented (I probably
should not treat this personally 😀). It is as well maintained as any other
back-end that is in the core. We don't have much more open tickets in the
Oracle back-end then in others and IMO it is easier to maintain it in the
core.

- *Technical:*
- *Oracle does not support may features*
- *due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the
base database backend which drives overall complexity*
Just like SQLite or MySQL I don't think that we should leave only

PostgreSQL in the core 😀.

- Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is
broken right now
I don't see any failures in djangoci.com. Maybe you use an unsupported

version of Oracle?

Best
Mariusz


W dniu niedziela, 25 listopada 2018 11:21:02 UTC+1 uÅŒytkownik Johannes

Hi there,
I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to
realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor
implementation of the Oracle backend.
Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that the
current master, fails on oracle ;)
Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0
release?
- License
- Oracle is Proprietary software
- Money
- Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes 40bn
in revenue
- Oracle does not support may features
- due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the
base database backend which drives overall complexity
- Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is
broken right now
- entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
- one needs to accept a non open source license
- register with oracle
- go through a very complex setup process
Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep
them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed
separately from Django.
This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is
enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what
Django want's to offer.
Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
Best
-Joe

[Johannes Hoppe]

Post by Mariusz Felisiak
Hi
I don't agree that the Oracle back-end is poor implemented (I
probably should not treat this personally 😀). It is as well maintained as
any other back-end that is in the core. We don't have much more open
tickets in the Oracle back-end then in others and IMO it is easier to
maintain it in the core.

Haha, sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I hope you can see past my
poor choice of works. I just noticed that a lot of oracle specific behavior
is implemented in the base backend, where other backends like MySQL opt to
override methods to add their db specific behavior.

Post by Mariusz Felisiak

- *Technical:*
- *Oracle does not support may features*
- *due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the
base database backend which drives overall complexity*
Just like SQLite or MySQL I don't think that we should leave only

PostgreSQL in the core 😀.

They are actually a lot better maintained then Oracle, which leads me to
believe it's not used that often. Besides both DBs you mentioned are open
source. I don't mind putting in extra work for an open source database. For
a private corp that makes 4bn in revenue... not so much. Maybe a separate
backend project, would also see more support from Oracle.

Post by Mariusz Felisiak

- Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is
broken right now
I don't see any failures in djangoci.com. Maybe you use an unsupported

version of Oracle?
Best
Mariusz
W dniu niedziela, 25 listopada 2018 11:21:02 UTC+1 uÅŒytkownik Johannes

Hi there,
I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to
realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor
implementation of the Oracle backend.
Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that
the current master, fails on oracle ;)
Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0
release?
- License
- Oracle is Proprietary software
- Money
- Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes 40bn
in revenue
- Oracle does not support may features
- due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the
base database backend which drives overall complexity
- Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is
broken right now
- entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
- one needs to accept a non open source license
- register with oracle
- go through a very complex setup process
Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep
them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed
separately from Django.
This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is
enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what
Django want's to offer.
Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
Best
-Joe

[Carlton Gibson]

Hi Joe! 👋

I don't mind putting in extra work for an open source database. For a private corp that makes 4bn in revenue... not so much.

Is the issue “How to squeeze money out of Oracle?” — On that, did anyone try asking? 🙂
(I do feel that sentiment too.)

C.

[Johannes Hoppe]

Hahaha, yes kind of :P
If they become a corporate sponsor it shut up immediately ;)

Post by Carlton Gibson
Hi Joe! 👋
I don't mind putting in extra work for an open source database. For a
private corp that makes 4bn in revenue... not so much.
Is the issue “How to squeeze money out of Oracle?” — On that, did anyone
try asking? 🙂
(I do feel that sentiment too.)
C.

[Florian Apolloner]

Hi,

I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks,
but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with the
ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work (if at
all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not matter whether
one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or MySQL. All in all I
think having Oracle is a good thing because databases like MSSQL and
Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just narrowing the
core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of tunnel vision.

Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer
VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.

Cheers,
Florian

[Johannes Hoppe]

Post by Florian Apolloner
Hi,
I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks,
but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with the
ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work (if at
all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not matter whether
one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or MySQL. All in all I
think having Oracle is a good thing because databases like MSSQL and
Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just narrowing the
core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of tunnel vision.
Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer
VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.

There is not official container and the one you can build from their repo,
didn't work for me. Furthermore you need to register with oracle and give
them your Phone number, just to download the python library bindings. So it
is somewhat harder than others ;)

Post by Florian Apolloner
Cheers,
Florian

[Jani Tiainen]

Post by Johannes Hoppe

Post by Florian Apolloner
Hi,
I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks,
but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with the
ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work (if at
all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not matter whether
one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or MySQL. All in all I
think having Oracle is a good thing because databases like MSSQL and
Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just narrowing the
core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of tunnel vision.
Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer
VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.

There is not official container and the one you can build from their repo,
didn't work for me. Furthermore you need to register with oracle and give
them your Phone number, just to download the python library bindings. So it
is somewhat harder than others ;)

I've very successfully built docker images from Oracle official repo
without any major problems.

Also since cx_Oracle 6 you can build db api bindings without oracle sdk
libraries with simple pip install. Using those though requires client libs.

Not sure about registration process and is it needed for instant client or
xe version.

Post by Johannes Hoppe

Post by Florian Apolloner
Cheers,
Florian

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[charettes]

I haven't tried it out for Oracle yet but Tom Forbes' django-docker-box
seems to make it a not-too-painful process[0]

Simon

[0] https://github.com/orf/django-docker-box#oracle

Post by Johannes Hoppe

Post by Florian Apolloner
Hi,
I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks,
but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with the
ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work (if at
all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not matter whether
one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or MySQL. All in all I
think having Oracle is a good thing because databases like MSSQL and
Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just narrowing the
core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of tunnel vision.
Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer
VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.

There is not official container and the one you can build from their repo,
didn't work for me. Furthermore you need to register with oracle and give
them your Phone number, just to download the python library bindings. So it
is somewhat harder than others ;)

Post by Florian Apolloner
Cheers,
Florian

[Johannes Hoppe]

To quote the documentation: https://github.com/orf/django-docker-box/blob/85780dcc81d62a4c0c1142b45eb69e825d97b074/README.md#oracle

"As usual Oracle is a bit more complex to set up.” ;)


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www.johanneshoppe.com

Want to chat? Let's get a coffee!
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Lennéstr. 19
14469 Potsdam

USt-IdNr.: DE284754038

I haven't tried it out for Oracle yet but Tom Forbes' django-docker-box seems to make it a not-too-painful process[0]
Simon
[0] https://github.com/orf/django-docker-box#oracle

Hi,
I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks, but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with the ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work (if at all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not matter whether one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or MySQL. All in all I think having Oracle is a good thing because databases like MSSQL and Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just narrowing the core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of tunnel vision.
Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.

There is not official container and the one you can build from their repo, didn't work for me. Furthermore you need to register with oracle and give them your Phone number, just to download the python library bindings. So it is somewhat harder than others ;)

Cheers,
Florian

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[Tom Forbes]

Indeed, the initial setup of the database takes a horrendous amount of time
(like 30 minutes to init an empty database!).

Post by Johannes Hoppe
https://github.com/orf/django-docker-box/blob/85780dcc81d62a4c0c1142b45eb69e825d97b074/README.md#oracl
<https://github.com/orf/django-docker-box/blob/85780dcc81d62a4c0c1142b45eb69e825d97b074/README.md#oracle>e
"As usual Oracle is a bit more complex to set up.” ;)
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www.johanneshoppe.com
Want to chat? Let's get a coffee!
https://calendly.com/codingjoe/coffee
Lennéstr. 19
14469 Potsdam
USt-IdNr.: DE284754038
I haven't tried it out for Oracle yet but Tom Forbes' django-docker-box
seems to make it a not-too-painful process[0]
Simon
[0] https://github.com/orf/django-docker-box#oracle

Post by Johannes Hoppe

Post by Florian Apolloner
Hi,
I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks,
but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with the
ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work (if at
all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not matter whether
one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or MySQL. All in all I
think having Oracle is a good thing because databases like MSSQL and
Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just narrowing the
core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of tunnel vision.
Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer
VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.

There is not official container and the one you can build from their
repo, didn't work for me. Furthermore you need to register with oracle and
give them your Phone number, just to download the python library bindings.
So it is somewhat harder than others ;)

Post by Florian Apolloner
Cheers,
Florian

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[Dan Davis]

Related question - how would I search for Oracle specific issues. I found
this query:

https://code.djangoproject.com/query?status=assigned&status=new&keywords=~oracle&component=Database+layer+(models%2C+ORM)&col=id&col=summary&col=status&col=component&col=owner&col=type&col=version&desc=1&order=id

However, I'm not sure how much I can rely on the keywords.

[Tim Graham]

That's the query I would use. The 'oracle' keyword might not be assigned
completely but you can scan through all the "Database layers" tickets
fairly easily and add it to any that are missing.

Post by Dan Davis
Related question - how would I search for Oracle specific issues. I
https://code.djangoproject.com/query?status=assigned&status=new&keywords=~oracle&component=Database+layer+(models%2C+ORM)&col=id&col=summary&col=status&col=component&col=owner&col=type&col=version&desc=1&order=id
However, I'm not sure how much I can rely on the keywords.

[Dan Davis]

Another related question -
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/contributing/writing-code/unit-tests/#testing-other-python-versions-and-database-backends
provides some terse advice for running the unit tests with different
backends. Is that essentially what is happening with a test
like https://djangoci.com/job/django-oracle-1.11/, or is it more specific?

Post by Tim Graham
That's the query I would use. The 'oracle' keyword might not be assigned
completely but you can scan through all the "Database layers" tickets
fairly easily and add it to any that are missing.

[gg wwk]

Firstly, greetings everyone I'm new here but I am looking to learn and use
Django more so...

I see the edge cases being a issue but I am for Oracle going out of core.
And in order to maintain and/or expand MySQL support how is the the
implementation of MariaDB <https://mariadb.org/> going so far?

I quick glance revealed this much:
https://github.com/django/django/search?q=mariadb&unscoped_q=mariadb

Thanks,
gwk

Post by Dan Davis
Another related question -
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/contributing/writing-code/unit-tests/#testing-other-python-versions-and-database-backends
provides some terse advice for running the unit tests with different
backends. Is that essentially what is happening with a test like
https://djangoci.com/job/django-oracle-1.11/, or is it more specific?

Post by Tim Graham
That's the query I would use. The 'oracle' keyword might not be assigned
completely but you can scan through all the "Database layers" tickets
fairly easily and add it to any that are missing.

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